THE ABSURD TIMES — STILL

The Absurd Times Gaza, IDF, Israel, Criminal Court

Posted in Uncategorized by @honestcharlie on May 10, 2015

THE ABSURD TIMES

Illustration: This is the woman, in caricature since she feels so much in favor of cartoons, who was behind the absurdity in Texas. She not only generated a great deal of publicity for herself in the process, got two people dead, probably obtained more money in donations, but also provided ISIS with a great deal of publicity and provided a great boost to its recruitment efforts (which had been floundering). It also generated a great deal of free air-time for cable news and thus sponsorship. A great day for Capitalism all around.

We should recall the farce that erupted when some Ayatollah in Iran put a hit on Salmun Rushdie. Now, overnight, he went from a very obscure elitist novelist to the top of nearly every bestseller list in the world, generating millions for himself and his publisher. It also took Iran about 15 years to live that one down. Now, Iran is very respected in most of the world and the wackos of ISIS were starting to loose face until she came around.

On to more important things:
Every so often, events and situations repeat themselves to where they are no longer of interest. However, to neglect them simply allows them to accumulate and the situations becomes a compound of all the previous actions.

For example, not a day goes by without some documentation of another Israeli atrocity. Sometimes only one child is mangled or tortured, sometimes a small village, but nothing so large as to engage wide attention such as did the slaughter of civilians in Gaza. While the U.S. was justifiably outraged at police in the Freddie Grey case (or, indeed whatever case it happened to be on that day or during that week), an unprovoked Israeli cop beat a black man, and another cop joined him to assist. The fact that the black man was an Ethiopian Jew (a “schwarzer”) far outweighed the fact that he was also an Israeli soldier.

Since the Gaza War, we could not imagine a more Nazi-like administration in Israel. Well, they had another election and managed to bring even that off. Here is a link: http://972mag.com/next-head-of-civil-administration-said-palestinians-are-sub-human/106533/ that show there is no limit to how vile people can become. Nitwityahoo attempted to ban Arabs from Parliament altogether, but the new rules caused Arabs to unite and thus gained more representation, which show that there are no limits to … [oh, just pick something].

Anyway, remember the Gaza slaughter? Here was the deal: we drop a pamphlet telling you to get out of your neighborhood. You think, “Oh, thank you,” and leave. Otherwise you are an enemy. This would not go down anywhere I can imagine, but that is what we are expected to think was OK in GAZA.

Now Palestine is in the World Court. The following is a discussion of the entire issue:

WEDNESDAY, MAY 6, 2015

“Kill Anything”: Israeli Soldiers Say Gaza Atrocities Came from Orders for Indiscriminate Fire

A new report based on testimonies of Israeli soldiers concludes the massive civilian death toll from last summer’s Israeli assault on Gaza resulted from a policy of indiscriminate fire. The Israeli veterans group Breaking the Silence released testimonies of more than 60 Israeli officers and soldiers which it says illustrate a “broad ethical failure” that “comes from the top of the chain of command.” More than 2,200 Palestinians were killed in the assault, the vast majority civilians. On Israel’s side, 73 people were killed, all but six of them soldiers. During the 50-day operation, more than 20,000 Palestinian homes were destroyed, and hundreds of thousands of people are still displaced. We hear candid video testimonies from the soldiers and speak to former Israeli paratrooper Avner Gvaryahu, director of public outreach at Breaking the Silence.

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

JUANGONZÁLEZ: We begin today’s show with a new report based on testimonies of Israeli soldiers that concludes the massive civilian death toll from last summer’s Israeli assault on Gaza resulted from a “policy of indiscriminate fire.” The Israeli veterans group Breaking the Silence released testimonies of more than 60 Israeli officers and soldiers, which it says illustrate a, quote, “broad ethical failure” that “comes from the top of the chain of command.” More than 2,200 Palestinians were killed in the assault, the vast majority of them civilians. On Israel’s side, 73 people were killed, all but six of them soldiers. During the 50-day operation, more than 20,000 Palestinian homes were destroyed, and hundreds of thousands of people are still displaced.

AMYGOODMAN: In a video made by Breaking the Silence, a first sergeant in the Israeli military, his voice distorted, describes how a commander told him, “There are no innocent civilians,” and to assume anyone within 200 or 400 meters of the Israeli Defense Forces was an enemy. ’

IDFFIRSTSERGEANT: [translated] The commander announced, “Folks, tomorrow we enter. I want you to be determined, task-oriented and confident. The entire nation is behind you”—the usual speeches. And then he spoke about the rules of engagement. And I quote: “The rules of engagement are: Any person at a distance that could put you at risk, you kill him with no need for clearance.” Meaning, anyone at a distance of 200, 300, 400 meters from us, isn’t an ordinary civilian. According to IDF logic, he must be there for a reason, because an ordinary civilian would flee the area, and so, we must kill him with no need for clearance. For me, it was just spine-tingling. I said to him, “Let me get this straight. Any person I see in the neighborhood where we’re headed, I spot him and kill him?” He said, “Yes. Any sane person who sees a tank battalion in his neighborhood will run away. If he sticks around, then he’s up to something. And if he’s up to something, it’s against you. So shoot him.” So I tried to dig a little deeper and asked, “What if it’s an innocent civilian?” He said, “There are no innocent civilians. Your presumption should be that anyone within the area of battle, 200, 300, 400 meters from you, is your enemy.”

AMYGOODMAN: That was an Israeli Defense Force, IDF, soldier who served during last summer’s Israeli assault on Gaza, known as Operation Protective Edge. His testimony is part of a new report just released by the veterans group Breaking the Silence.

For more, we go to Tel Aviv, Israel, where we’re joined by Avner Gvaryahu, director of public outreach at Breaking the Silence. He’s a former IDF solder who served from 2004 to ’07 as a sergeant in a special operations unit around Nablus and Jenin.

We welcome you, Avner, to Democracy Now! Talk about the number of people who are speaking out and why you have done this now.

AVNERGVARYAHU: So, hi, Amy. We’re a group, Breaking the Silence, as an organization, a group of former IDF soldiers, and actually some of us are still currentIDF soldiers. Throughout the years, we’ve met more than a thousand soldiers. And this time around, this summer, when the summer ended, and we realized—we saw the amount of damage, we realized that something went terribly wrong. And we actually started getting phone calls, emails from soldiers who were themselves in this operation. And then we, ourselves, also started reaching out to people. So we’re talking about, as you said, more than 60 soldiers. A third of them are officers, which is a very high number for us. And we’re talking about people that all served during the summer in different positions, in different units. We’re not talking about soldiers from only one specific place, but throughout the entire Strip in different positions. And I think reading these testimonies, it definitely did this to me and to us in the organization, but I think it’s very, very clear that something went terribly, terribly wrong. And the bare minimum we can do is listen to the same soldiers we sent to fight in our name.

JUANGONZÁLEZ: And, Avner, what penalties are the—in all of these clips, the soldiers are anonymous, their identities are not revealed. What penalties do they face for speaking out? And how did you manage to get so many people to get together to testify in one video?

AVNERGVARYAHU: Well, it’s actually—it’s not an easy task. It’s not trivial to speak out in Israel today. It’s definitely something that is difficult. And I have to say that the soldiers, who are anonymous—and all the testimonies that are given are given to us, you know, one on one, so we know each and every one of the testifiers, but for various reasons we have decided to make sure all our testifiers will be anonymous. But they’re not scared of the penalties. They’re not scared of legal repercussions. They’re actually scared of the reaction of their society and the fact that they will be seen as the scapegoat. And I think one of the points that we’ve always tried to make is that the soldiers coming and speaking out are not the problem. The soldiers coming and speaking out, in my eyes, are maybe a way for solution. They’re really managing to pinpoint or to put a spotlight on the orders they got from up high. And that’s where we’re going to try to push the debate, to a larger public debate about the way we fight our wars, the way we fight in Gaza, and maybe try to make sure next time around will—won’t be that close or maybe won’t happen at all.

AMYGOODMAN: In this clip, a first sergeant describes his commander’s order to randomly fire on a neighborhood in the Gaza Strip during the assault last summer.

IDFFIRSTSERGEANT: [translated] So he gave an order: “Guys, park the tanks in a row. Assume position facing the neighborhood of Al-Bureij and prepare for contact.” Contact means we all shoot at once, after a countdown—three, two, one, shoot. I remember all the tanks stood in a row, and I personally asked my commander, “Where do we shoot?” He said, “Wherever you like.” Later on, I also heard from the other guys that everyone just chose a target. And he said on the radio, “Good morning, Al-Bureij. Guys, we’re going to do a ‘Good morning, Al-Bureij.'” This meant waking up the neighborhood to show them that theIDF is here and to deter them. I remember how the tanks stood in a row. So did ours. And I, the gunman, looked at some house, a very tall house, in the center of that neighborhood some 2,000 meters away, which is about two kilometers. And I asked my commander, “Where in the house do I aim?” He said, “Aim a little to the right, a little to the left, at that window, at that floor. Three, two, one, shoot.” And we all shot shells sporadically, of course. At no point was anyone shooting at us, though.

AMYGOODMAN: Again, that soldier, his face is blurred, and his voice is disguised. Our guest is Avner Gvaryahu. He’s a first sergeant in the IDF, the person we just heard. So you interviewed, or Breaking the Silence interviewed some, what, 70 officers, soldiers? You have this all on videotape?

AVNERGVARYAHU: So, a little bit less than 70 soldiers, many of them officers, were interviewed. Not all are on video. A small number of them was willing to be filmed on video, because of the things I mentioned earlier. I mean, we’re talking about a real fear, which I can definitely relate to. But still, they found in them the urge and the need to come and speak out.

This specific clip or testimony was really, as you mentioned, from a soldier who served that was a gunner in the Armored Corps. I think the interesting thing about this testimony is that it’s actually not that unique. We hear very similar stories, incidences, from various soldiers in different places. And the stories that keep coming up are the fact that, basically, soldiers were told to, first of all, almost constantly shoot, which is something that is not the procedure. Just in comparison, during the Second Intifada around the year 2000 in the Gaza Strip, in order to shoot—in order for a tanker or for a gunner to shoot a tank shell, he actually needed permission from his battalion officer. We’re talking in this time around, in this round, soldiers that were very, very young soldiers, sometimes enough—as the tank commander gave these orders. So, basically, soldiers were told almost constantly, “Shoot.” And this is something, as we just heard, many times in areas that they were not shot at from, many times to areas they had no idea what they were actually shooting at.

JUANGONZÁLEZ: Well, Avner, one soldier said his unit tried to shoot all of its machine gun ammunition just before getting resupplied, even if their targets had not been identified. Let’s listen to this one.

IDFSOLDIER: [translated] I remember that one time our post was overlooking a valley, and we decided—we knew we were about to have our ammunition reloaded, so we didn’t really care how much we use up on the way. We felt that we were supposed to waste as much ammo as possible. So we just started firing the machine gun’s entire magazine, which is thousands of bullets’ worth of ammo. And we just kept shooting and shooting, almost nonstop, until the barrel was overheated. When it does, it’s called a “barrel melt.” It changes shape, and it’s no longer usable. But we didn’t really care, because we knew that no one would ask questions.

JUANGONZÁLEZ: So, Avner Gvaryahu, what did the soldiers say about the rules of engagement that they were told by their officers to utilize in this conflict?

AVNERGVARYAHU: Well, you know, I think that’s one of the most interesting points: rules of engagement. I mean, as you mentioned, I, myself, was a paratrooper. And I was also a sergeant, a commander of soldiers. And I knew what my rules of engagement were, but they keep them very brief. Basically, one of the things I was taught was, if you have a doubt, then there is no doubt. What does that mean when I was a soldier? What does that mean when I was serving in the West Bank? Basically, think not twice, but at least three or four times, before you shoot, because if there’s a little bit of a doubt, then better you do not make a mistake, and basically, don’t shoot if there’s a doubt.

What we see in the Gaza Strip is basically the army’s attempt to eliminate the idea of doubt. Soldiers were told—and this is really throughout the Strip, throughout the board—soldiers were told that the areas that they’re entering are areas that there are no civilians. Now, the IDF does warn civilians in the areas soldiers were supposed to enter. Pamphlets were dropped from the air, sometimes phone calls. But the moment that those warnings were given, in the mindset of the military, anyone staying in that area turns into someone that is an enemy. Now, the moment after we throw those pamphlets and make a few phone calls, not to each and every one of the houses, theIDF starts bombing artillery shells all over these areas. So soldiers are basically entering an area that they were told—basically, from our perspective, they were lied to—that there are no civilians there.

Now, why am I saying in such certainty they were lied to? Because from our testimonies, we hear over and over again that there were still Palestinians in these neighborhoods. Now, I don’t know why they were there. Some stayed because maybe Hamas members forced them. Maybe that was the case. But in other cases, we know of people that were there because they just couldn’t leave—elderly people, people that were handicapped; people that for reasons we don’t know—maybe they didn’t want to leave their property—stayed. One of the testimonies talks about a soldier entering a house, and there are between 30 and 40 people in it. Right? So when we’re talking about the mindset of a soldier, and the testimony we just heard, soldiers were under the false assumption—the false assumption—that they’re entering an area that no civilians are in.

AMYGOODMAN: In—

AVNERGVARYAHU: And one of the powerful testimonies—yeah?

AMYGOODMAN: I just wanted to play another clip from an IDF soldier describing how they would shoot freely at houses during the assault on Gaza last summer in order to, quote, “make their presence felt.”

IDFFIRSTSERGEANT: [translated] When we had some time to kill, meaning that we didn’t need to cover for an infantry unit or raid a house, when there was really nothing to do, that from time to time a tank must adopt a position—meaning, to drive up to where we can see the area ahead and “make our presence felt,” so to speak—to shoot a shell or fire a machine gun to remind the Gazans that we’re there and that they must behave. There were many times where we sat in that boiling hot tank, sweating bullets, half-asleep and half-bored, and we’d get a sudden radio call: “Tank 1A, assume the position and fire a shell.” Tank 1A would then drive up on some ramp that the bulldozer had created. Then we’d look around and think, “Which house do we want to take down? Let’s go with this one.” “Can we shoot it?” “Yes.” Boom. The person to say yes wasn’t a company commander or a battalion commander, not even an officer. It was a tank commander, a sergeant. So that’s what we’d do to kill time. We would even take turns with our tanks and just drive up there to shoot.

There’s one amusing story that I clearly remember. I drove up on the ramp at around 9:00 a.m. or 10:00 a.m., but I didn’t really want to shoot at a house, because it was my first day, and it still felt wrong. I still had a moral problem with it. So my commander told me, “Go ahead. Shoot. Where do you feel like shooting?” I aimed at—I was the gunman, so I’d aim and shoot. So I aimed at a metal sign with some Arabic writing on it, like “Private farmland, do not enter.” And we just shot at that. So we destroyed half of that grove, destroyed his sign and the olive trees, just because we didn’t have anything to do. There was also this time when I drove up, saw a house, decided that it bothered me that it was a purple house. So I asked, “Can I shoot it?” “Sure, go ahead.” And boom. There was no supervision. Nobody cared. And that’s that. Those were our rules of engagement during Operation Protective Edge.

AMYGOODMAN: That’s an IDF soldier describing what happened last summer, the Israeli assault on Gaza, his role in it, what is known as Operation Protective Edge. Avner, respond to this. Also, I cut you off when you were talking about another testimony.

AVNERGVARYAHU: Yeah, so, I just wanted to—you know, we have these specific incidences, but one of the things we hear from many, many soldiers is the mindset that they were in. And one of the guys describes it, I think, very well. He says, “After three weeks in the Gaza Strip, that you shoot at everything that moves—and things that don’t move. In a crazy amount of gun power, the good and the bad sort of mix up together, and morality sort of disappears.” And then he says, “It sort of becomes like a video game, and it’s like really, really cool and real.” The truth of the matter is this is something that, I mean, I can resonate to. I didn’t serve in the Gaza Strip; I served in the West Bank. But these are things that we hear from soldiers throughout, you know, the decade we’ve been gathering testimonies.

I think what happened in the Gaza Strip this time around, because of the unbelievable amount of gunfire, then we really see soldiers using this—you know, this ability really indiscriminately. And I have to say, I don’t think that it was—I think there is a difference between shooting indiscriminately and shooting intentionally. Maybe the outcome is the same, but there is a difference. I mean, there wasn’t an intentional harm to kill innocent Palestinians, but when we talk about the orders they got, when we’re talking about the way we used force in Gaza, that’s where the problem starts, because soldiers were really told there are no innocent civilians. And this is why we hear and see these testimonies.

JUANGONZÁLEZ: Well, in this other testimony, an Israeli soldier described how he was instructed to treat anyone seen looking towards his position as a scout for Hamas or other militant groups to be fired on.

IDFSOLDIER: [translated] But when we spotted someone, we couldn’t tell if he was a lookout or just someone we saw near a window, because he lifted his head or was out smoking a cigarette. And sometimes he’s far away. You can see him two kilometers away through your sights, but he doesn’t even know you’re there, so he doesn’t hide. You just see him near a window, and he could be a lookout, but you never really know. And our orders were: “You see anyone standing near a window, you shoot.”

JUANGONZÁLEZ: And this is an Israeli soldier describing his feelings at the end of the assault on Gaza.

IDFFIRSTSERGEANT: [translated] My feeling after Operation Protective Edge wasn’t so good. I had also lost a friend there, and some friends were wounded, but I mostly felt bad morally speaking. I felt that we shot at houses just because, without even knowing if anyone’s there. We shot at cars, at ambulances, doing things I was raised not to do—not to kill the innocent, not to shoot at an ambulance. It’s like the Wild West out there, and it was all approved by the commanders. I felt there was something morally rotten in this army if we were authorized to do this, because our first rule is not to kill without reason, and here I was formally told, “Kill anything in your proximity.” And I took part in that. I did it, and I regret it. I killed people, most of whom didn’t do anything to me—people standing on rooftops, people driving in cars, people in ambulances, people at home. I don’t even know where their homes are on the map. And we just did it because. “Why not? Let’s fire a shell for fun.” It’s a really lousy feeling.

JUANGONZÁLEZ: And in this final clip, an IDF soldier describes how a battalion commander tried to raise morale by telling the soldiers in his company that Shejaiya had been completely destroyed.

IDFSOLDIER: [translated] I don’t remember when exactly, but one day the battalion commander gathered the entire battalion. I guess he wanted to give a speech to raise our morale. He knew that many of our friends from the other battalion were in Shejaiya, and so he said, “You don’t need to worry anymore. There is no Shejaiya. Shejaiya is gone,” like it was wiped off the face of the map. Those were his exact words: “There is no Shejaiya.”

JUANGONZÁLEZ: Well, Avner Gvaryahu, what are you hoping to accomplish with these video testimonies now?

AVNERGVARYAHU: Well, first and foremost, what we want to hope for is to create debate. We want people to know how we’re fighting in Gaza. I think that it’s very clear this is, you know, the third round. Everyone knows there’s going to be another one. So let’s make sure that’s what we can hope for, is that before the next cycle starts, let’s at least know what we’re demanding from our soldiers to do. Now, we’re—of course, we could hope for much more. One of the points that we are calling for is an Israeli investigation, but external to the military. We believe that it’s crucial and possible for our society to look itself in the mirror and ask itself what they’re actually asking their soldier or military to do. And in that matter, it’s—like I said earlier, it’s not about finding a scapegoat. It’s not about a specific commander. It’s about, you know, the picture, the whole picture. And I think it’s definitely about time that we have a real chance to take responsibility and say that we, as a society, cannot accept the fact that this is the way we’re going to continue to live. And I, as an Israeli—I, by the way, see myself as an Israeli patriot. I am not willing to accept the fact that because our enemies act in immoral ways, it’s OK for us to not ask ourselves any questions.

AMYGOODMAN: Avner Gvaryahu, in our next segment we’re going to look at Palestine joining the ICC. Will Breaking the Silence bring these soldiers’ testimonies to the International Criminal Court?

AVNERGVARYAHU: Well, the answer is no. We have never called for or handed information to external courts or, therefore, to Israeli courts. We’re an organization just trying to create awareness. I think—just specifically speaking, I think that there are more relevant places to bring the report. And that’s, of course, to the Israeli eye. I think that what we are trying to do is create this report. But the information is out there. It is public. We actually—last time around, around the Goldstone Report, we did not meet with the committee, but the committee did decide to use our information. So the information is out there, but what we call is what I said earlier, and this is really something that we find very important: an Israeli investigation that’s external to the military. We believe this is possible and crucial to our society.

AMYGOODMAN: Avner Gvaryahu, I want to thank you for being with us, director of public outreach at Breaking the Silence, a former IDF soldier who served from 2004 to ’07 as a sergeant in a special operations unit around Nablus and Jenin. This isDemocracy Now! When we come back, we go to The Hague, where the International Criminal Court has a new member—Palestine. Stay with us.

WEDNESDAY, MAY 6, 2015

After Palestine Overcomes U.S.-Israeli Pressure and Joins ICC, Will Gaza’s Victims See Justice?

A new report from the Israeli group Breaking the Silence on Israel’s policy of indiscriminate fire during the 2014 Gaza assault comes just a week after a United Nations probe confirmed Israeli forces conducted direct attacks on its facilities in Gaza during last summer’s offensive. The attacks took place despite repeated notifications with the GPS coordinates of U.N. sites to Israeli forces. Palestinians have vowed to bring the findings to the International Criminal Court, which it officially joined last month. We discuss the implications of Palestine’s accession to the ICC with two guests: Ambassador Nabil Abuznaid, head of the Palestinian Mission to the Netherlands, and John Dugard, former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories and emeritus professor of international law at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands.

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

JUANGONZÁLEZ: The Breaking the Silence report on Israel’s “policy of indiscriminate fire” during the 2014 Gaza assault is being published just a week after a United Nations probe confirmed Israeli forces conducted direct attacks on United Nations facilities in Gaza, killing at least 44 Palestinians sheltering at those sites during last summer’s offensive. The attacks took place despite repeated notifications to Israeli forces of the GPS coordinates of U.N. sites.

AMYGOODMAN: Palestinians have vowed to bring the findings to the International Criminal Court, which it officially joined last month. Last week, while we were at The Hague, I spoke to two guests about the implications of Palestine’s accession to the International Criminal Court. Ambassador Nabil Abuznaid is the head of the Palestinian Mission to the Netherlands. And John Dugard is the former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, now emeritus professor of international law at University of Leiden in the Netherlands. He was born in South Africa. I started by asking Ambassador Abuznaid about the significance of Palestine becoming the newest member of the International Criminal Court.

NABILABUZNAID: Well, first, I think the international community should encourage Palestine and congratulate Palestine for joining the international court, because we accepted to live under international law. We are a peace-abiding nation. And we really tried politically to end the occupation. We tried by all means to end it. But, unfortunate, we were forced to seek justice through the international court, which hopefully could stop the Israeli aggressions against our people, against our lands, so we can live free and in dignity in our homeland.

AMYGOODMAN: What kind of pressure did you come under? Israel and the United States were opposed to you making this bid to be a member.

NABILABUZNAID: Well, they can oppose as much as they want. They can stop the money from going to the ICC. They can shut a building. But they cannot stop justice. I think justice, in the end, will prevail.

AMYGOODMAN: John Dugard, in terms of international law, what’s the significance of Palestine becoming a member of the International Criminal Court?

JOHNDUGARD: In the first place, it does give credibility to Palestine’s statehood. Palestine is now a fully fledged member of the International Criminal Court. And even those states in the court system that do not recognize Palestine have to accept that it is a state at least for the purposes of the International Criminal Court. The other important factor is that it does now provide an avenue for the pursuit of international criminal justice.

AMYGOODMAN: What, Ambassador, do you want the International Criminal Court to investigate? What is before the court?

NABILABUZNAID: Well, I think Palestinians, for more than 60 years, they did not have one day of justice. And what is the daily going under the occupation, it is clearly violations of international law—in moving people from their land, in stopping people from their freedom in movement, in attacks on Gaza and killing thousands of people. I am sure Israel violated every international law in the book in its long occupation in Palestine.

AMYGOODMAN: What is the particular case before the court right now, John Dugard?

JOHNDUGARD: I think there are three major crimes that the court will be required to investigate. First of all, there is the question of settlements. There are today over 700,000 illegal Israeli settlers in Palestinian territory, and that is an international crime in terms of the Rome Statute and general international law. So that’s the first crime. The second crime, and probably the most important, concerns the recent Gaza conflict, Operation Protective Edge, where Israel was responsible for killing 2,200 people and failing to distinguish between civilians and combatants. So, that clearly is at least a war crime, probably a crime against humanity, as well. And there’s also the failure of Israel to treat political prisoners as prisoners of war, which I know is an issue that is important to the Palestinian Authority.

AMYGOODMAN: Just to clarify, John Dugard, there’s no particular case that’s been brought up right now with the newest membership of Palestine.

JOHNDUGARD: The prosecutor of the court has decided to conduct a preliminary examination into the issue. And in order to decide whether or not to conduct a full-scale investigation into the allegations of international crimes, she will have to be satisfied, first of all, that an international crime was committed; secondly, that there is no investigation, proper investigation, that is being conducted in the responding state, which in this case will be Israel; and, thirdly, that the crime is sufficiently serious, that it meets what’s called the gravity test.

AMYGOODMAN: Ambassador Abuznaid, are you concerned that Palestinians, Palestinian organizations will be indicted, as well?

NABILABUZNAID: Well, when we accepted the Rome Statutes, we are not immune. We will cooperate with the court. If we need to be investigated, we are willing to do that. We accepted to live under international law. And if we are violating international law, we would be responsible for our acts equally. And I hope the Israelis would see the same as we do.

AMYGOODMAN: Speaking to a congressional panel in 2014, U.N. Ambassador Samantha Power said the U.S. will continue to block Palestinian efforts in forums like the United Nations.

SAMANTHAPOWER: There are no shortcuts to statehood, and we’ve made that clear. Efforts that attempt to circumvent the peace process, the hard slog of the peace process, are only going to be counterproductive to the peace process itself and to the ultimate objective of securing statehood, the objective that the Palestinian Authority, of course, has. So, we have contested every effort, even prior to the restart of negotiations spearheaded by Secretary Kerry. Every time the Palestinians have sought to make a move on a U.N. agency, a treaty, etc., we have opposed it.

AMYGOODMAN: John Dugard, your response to the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., Samantha Power?

JOHNDUGARD: Well, I think the strategy of Israel and also of the United States is simply to allow talks to go on forever and ever, while Israel annexes more land and takes over Palestinian territory. The purpose of the International Criminal Court, as I see it, is to circumvent this strategy on the part of Israel and the United States and to make Israel and the United States see and face the issues very clearly—namely, that Israel has committed very, very serious international crimes. And I might add that I’m a South African who lived through apartheid. I have no hesitation in saying that Israel’s crimes are infinitely worse than those committed by the apartheid regime of South Africa.

AMYGOODMAN: Explain what you’re saying. You’re the former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights, as well.

JOHNDUGARD: For seven years, I visited the Palestinian territory twice a year. I also conducted a fact-finding mission after the Operation Cast Lead in Gaza in 2008, 2009. So I am familiar with the situation, and I am familiar with the apartheid situation. I was a human rights lawyer in apartheid South Africa. And I, like virtually every South African who visits the occupied territory, has a terrible sense of déjà vu. We’ve seen it all before, except that it is infinitely worse. And what has happened in the West Bank is that the creation of a settlement enterprise has resulted in a situation that closely resembles that of apartheid, in which the settlers are the equivalent of white South Africans. They enjoy superior rights over Palestinians, and they do oppress Palestinians. So, one does have a system of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territory. And I might mention that apartheid is also a crime within the competence of the International Criminal Court.

AMYGOODMAN: You say, John Dugard, that the situation in the Palestinian territories is worse than apartheid. What would an apartheid case brought to the International Criminal Court look like? Again, you were the special rapporteur, the U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, as well as being a South African and an international rights lawyer.

JOHNDUGARD: Well, of course, I think it’s important to stress that the whole international environment has changed since the end of apartheid, because the apartheid regime, fortunately for itself, did not have to face a legal action either before an international criminal court or before a national court, whereas Israel today does face action before an international court. Of course, the crimes are substantially the same: discrimination, repression, targeted assassinations, house demolitions. I think, in one respect, Israel’s crimes are much worse, and that is in respect of its military action against Gaza, where it has not hesitated to kill civilians indiscriminately.

AMYGOODMAN: The U.N. has confirmed that Israeli forces conducted direct attacks on United Nations facilities in Gaza, killing at least 44 Palestinians sheltering at the sites during last summer’s assault, the attacks taking place despite repeated notifications with the GPScoordinates of U.N. sites given to Israeli forces. Ambassador Abuznaid, your response to what the U.N. found? And what does this mean? I mean, Palestinians have been alleging this for quite some time now.

NABILABUZNAID: Well, I think this is not just the Palestinians saying it. This is Mr. Ban Ki-moon and the investigation saying that the Israelis killed, deliberately, innocent Palestinian civilians who have taken shelters in some of the U.N. buildings. And this is a violation of international law. But one comment I would like to say, as a Palestinian, regardless to the suffering of the Palestinian people, to our people through, you know, all this century, and now what happened in Syria, even in the Netherlands—we got 15,000 arrived here on boats, hundreds were drowned in the waters—we are not seeking revenge. Only we want justice for our people, who did not see one single day of justice. Hopefully, that justice would prevail soon.

AMYGOODMAN: Israel is not a member of the International Criminal Court.

JOHNDUGARD: No.

AMYGOODMAN: The United States is not a member of the International Criminal Court.

JOHNDUGARD: That is correct.

AMYGOODMAN: So, the significance of this, why they are not members?

JOHNDUGARD: Well the United States has given a number of reasons for failing to become a full member of the International Criminal Court. And one must remember that neither China nor the Russian Federation are members of the International Criminal Court. There are general reasons given by the United States. In the case of Israel, Israel has not become a party, because it has something to hide. It clearly does not wish to see its own military leaders and its political leaders targeted.

AMYGOODMAN: I want to thank you both for being with us. Ambassador Nabil Abuznaid is head of the Palestinian Mission to the Netherlands. John Dugard former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, now a professor emeritus at the University of Leiden here in the Netherlands. We’re broadcasting from The Hague in the Netherlands. I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks for joining us.

AMYGOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. When we come back, the NSA can turn your phone conversations into text, then search it? Stay with us.

[break]

AMYGOODMAN: “Everything is Everything” by Lauryn Hill. Lauryn Hill just canceled a concert in Israel, saying she had wanted to do one in both Israel and the Occupied Territories, and the one in the territories just wasn’t being able to happen. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.

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